The Hand Position Is Everything
Saturday evening we had a delightful get together with friends with barbecue, great desserts, good wine and a gorgeous view of the Bay. One of the hosts was talking with me about our current economic situation. He is a really nice guy, good businessman, more conservative politically than I am. He knows that I am probably left of center on most issues, he is right of center on most issues and we try to find common ground. Our conversations are like the picture below:
We always find ourselves seeking common ground and understanding, so I find myself moving right, seeking central ground. He is moving left seeking central ground. Where we can’t find agreement, it is not a concern and no heat is raised. I always learn from his vantage point.
Another friend was at the party and he is most definitely not right of center, he is dead right wing. He is VERY conservative and very vocal about it. Without bidding, he made a provocative statement about how destructive this current administration would be and truly believes that lowering taxes is THE ANSWER, period. Anyone seeing otherwise is uninformed and just flat wrong! Usually, I just avoid these conversations with him – until Saturday, when I had heard enough just sitting on the sidelines. Our conversation would be represented by the picture below:
OK, neither of us is in quite that condition and we definitely have less hair – but you get the basic idea. The result of “conversing” with him is that I find myself not moving to the middle at all, but I end up trying to counterbalance his extremity by MOVING LEFT, not moving to common ground at all. I suddenly BECOME the raving liberal he accuses me of. It is the only way to express without being bowled over and discarded.
How often do we do the same things to one another in daily dealings? Does an extremist generate the atmosphere in which his own views of others are met? Does a moderate do the same?
If I have deeply grounded expertise in a subject, I am far less vulnerable to the second situation. It’s like being so strong that arm wrestling isn’t really an alternative, since I can calmly hold the other person’s aggression at bay without having to distort my position. But, when I’m dealing with what is basically my opinion in an area fairly ambiguous to begin with, I am more vulnerable to the second scenario. I think I need to read the Dalai Lama’s tweets on Twitter to remind myself how to calm down when confronted in this manner.
Readers, what kinds of exchanges are you finding yourselves engaged in during these times that try our patience and challenge our security? Are you staying with those of the same views, limiting learning opportunities, but staying safe? Are you pushing others to extremity and then going, “See, I knew this was how you were!”? Or, are you finding people of different stripes who are like-minded in the effort to seek better understanding between yourselves?
I like my views challenged. I hate to have my views attacked in an effort to discard them. It seems like the difference is one of respect.
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Tags: Argument, Conversation, Debate, People
OK, Conrad, I’ll bite on this, because what I’m finding has surprised me. I’m entering into discussions with folks from both sides of the aisle, and we are agreeing more than disagreeing! The agreement is that there are no simple answers; that we are all hopeful that decisive actions will right this ship; that change is necessary; and that all of us will have to make sacrifices. I think our new president would rather still be campaigning–he’s realizing all those things the rest of us are agreeing on. But I’m hopeful that his team of players will come up with some good solutions that will win out in the test of time. I don’t think the worst of times have hit Kansas yet, like they have in California and Florida. We are bracing ourselves!
Janet, for the most part, my experience is agreeing with yours. I am presenting a general case for consideration on discourse, though. The person I am speaking of is representative of some of the people that I meet – both conservative AND liberal – who sit on the extreme and say that if you want to talk with me, you have to recognize that what I am telling you is right and you need to come to my point of view. I am not seeing that as a good way to find agreement – or even to educate, as far as that is concerned.
My views are actually a blend of conservative and liberal – if we want to pigeonhole ideas with those packages – but people like that make me hesitant to say those things that they will then just grasp as me “giving in” to their point of view so they can then say, “See! I told you!” I find that more exasperating than educational. This is another dimension of my “You Call This a Conversation?” post.
Thanks for what you’ve added here, Janet. I find what you said to be spot on, by the way. I would be another one of those agreeing with the people you are talking with.
My next post (Friday) at Transforming Stress is entitled, “Whatever….” That’s how I deal with blowhards who believe they possess the truth. It reminds me to keep my ego out of it and not waste my breath. I try to switch the conversation to something we have in common or else move on.
I do write to the White House and to my Congressmen when I have a strong opinion.
Jean Browman–Cheerful Monk’s last blog post..What Dogs Taught Me About Love and Stress Management
There’s great wisdom in your approach, Jean. Usually I follow it. Then, sometimes … Let’s just say I’m happier when I follow it!
Having recently retired, I worked in an group that was very heavily conservative and, even though I live in Arkansas, I don’t think any of them knew that I voted for Clinton. I still have occasion to meet socially with retirees from the same facility, but, when politics come up, I just restrain myself.
I agree with Jean. Why waste my breath?
One of the guys, Mike C., has a real mean streak, though. He came up to one of the others, a staunch, life-long, ultra-conservative Republican, and, with an evil grin, just as the other guy was taking a drink, said, “R.E., I heard that you’ve come to you’re senses and registered as a Democrat.”
R.E. spewed out his mouthful of coffee and started sputtering, trying to find the right words to respond with. R.E. is generally not at a loss for words.
Mike Goad’s last blog post..The New Location.
That’s great, Mike! Reminds me of a joke:
A nun is a teacher at a Catholic school. She asks students what they want to be when they grow up.
One girl says “a prostitute” and the nun faints. To make a long joke short, it happens three times.
Finally, the nun asks one last time and the girl says “a prostitute” – and the nun crosses herself in gratitude!
When the priest asks what the gratitude is for, the nun responds, “I thought she said ‘Protestant’!”
That’s how R.E. sounds!
Thanks, Mike and Conrad. I just told both of your stories to my husband and he laughed out loud. I suppose that’s why we’re not supposed to talk about politics and religion–most people believe they possess the truth and get upset when other people see things differently.
Jean Browman–Cheerful Monk’s last blog post..What Dogs Taught Me About Love and Stress Management
I’m not wasting my “breath’”commenting on this! Is this how it works? Good luck in Kansas Mrs. Copper!
Hey,Conrad –
You got me with that one! Yes – being a moderate – both the raving right wingers and crazy lefties make me want to scream. I agree with what you have said but would just like to add that I wonder how much “hate TV” adds to this piece of craziness!? I read somewhere that watching Fox News all day is very stressful and as I thought about it, I had to agree. I have since just quit watching them all! They have so much air time to fill and a lot of that time gets filled with hate.
I have gotten over trying to be a peace-maker, however, and I don’t hesitate to tell the blow hards that their opinion is not the only one and not necessarily the correct one!
When my husband & I argue we each are driving a point. We each want to be RIGHT! (Do we want to be at peace or RIGHT! — We all know the answer to that.)
Actually we are both right. Nothing is either black or white.
Conrad, to answer your specific question; I am increasingly having to explain things to people. Unfortunately, almost all that I meet regularly at the joggers park are retired elderly people who have lost touch with the world of business and economy etc and find it difficult to understand all that is going on. Since I am known to be a voracious reader and a blogger, I have, by default become the explainer and that has put quite a strain on me. I have to keep up to date and understand things first so that I can explain properly. Our politics here is not so much black and white and there is cheerful acceptance of political loyalties as every one knows that one is as good or as bad as the other and at election time, one votes for the lesser of the evilsl
rummuser’s last blog post..Grannymar’s Story Of How She and Jack Got Together.
bikehikebabe: True. Nothing is black and white, so we often argue about shades. But, perhaps more to your point, we often take two different aspects of the same issue and argue from that vantage point. We aren’t actually even debating one another any more and can’t resolve it.
“The elephant is like a rope,” says the one blind man, holding its tail. “No, I think it is more like a fire hose,” says another holding the trunk. And a third sees the elephant like a tree as he holds to a leg. “We need to cut taxes,” says one. “We need to support the Middle Class,” says another. And all miss the full elephant in the room.
Ramana, soon we will have to open bloggers parks!
Having read your posts (daily), I can well see how you got into this position. It will be well when we realize in our culture that, as bikehikebabe says, our politics shouldn’t be so black and white, either. At least, not if they want to more closely correspond to reality.
I think we make the mistake in our society of thinking that painting something in total black and white terms is being bold and decisive. That has hurt our diplomatic stance, among other things. The world is full of nuance.
I really like Fox News I want to thank Ms. Eshbaugh for promoting it. I plan to watch it more now!
Gail, how are you seeing things right now? I mean, if no one else was commenting on the post, what would you see as a good path for America, the World, etc?
And, you know me. I’m not sitting waiting to snipe at your answer. I really want to hear it.
Gail -
Have fun with that!!!
Hey with all this talk here I think there should be a new group party built…the gray matter called the demorep/repdemo. Then everyone could blend the shades better with out too much rigidity of informed and concrete positions…sway a little bit with each other! Everyone could give in to the gray matters. That way Conrad could have his middle ground in tacked! Hee, hee…
Diane, you are a very ornery person. I like that in a person!
Is that what I am. Thanks for clearing that up for me!!!
All in good fun!
We should throw a post-partisan party, then!
Daniel Kemmis in Community and the Politics of Place notes and I paraphrase, that public hearings are to be a matter of rational discourse. One then has to pretend that public decisions are based on objective, rational criteria when in fact they are based on values. The pretense of rational debate when one is dealing with values creates a strain on those who disagree.
I am of the impression that Conrad moves to the left not because he has mixed feelings but because what he values has been attacked and one way to defend those values is to take them even further, in this case to the left.
What would the conversation look like if the issue of values was the primary focus. Would this identify some common values that could allow both sides to move a little to the middle?
I also need to add that Conrad when I first met him did look very much like the strong man on the LEFT!!
Don, that has to be one of the best analyses of this issue I’ve heard yet. It maps perfectly to my experience and I think is precisely right. Thanks for the insight!
I might add that the first person that I was talking with, although much more conservative politically than I am, was in fact discussing with me values. And, as noted in the post, we did in fact both move to the middle.
And, yes, when Don and I met I did look much like the guy on the left – to the extent that my right hand was in the air and, I believe, holding a beer…
Let us try this one for size. We agree that we shall not do or say anything to anyone that we would not like done or said to us. A common sense acceptable value system for behaviour is laid down. The next step is that one is free to have opinions and ideas but they are different from those held by others and not better or worse. If we could get these basic rules laid down, I think that interpersonal relationships can get along in a much pleasanter way than otherwise.
rummuser’s last blog post..Grannymar’s Story Of How She and Jack Got Together.
Ramana: You are the voice of reason. The Golden Rule is represented in some form in the wisdom of pretty much all cultures that I have seen or studied. Must be a pretty fundamental foundation for civilized discourse. Fits well, nice size. I’ll take it!
Marianna Paulson has sent me a link that is very relevant to this discussion. It classifies different forms of disagreement. Whether you disagree about the classifications of disagreement – which really creates a feedback loop, doesn’t it? – it is well written and well worth consideration. Thanks Marianna!
http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html
Thanks for the pingback, Jean! I like your article…of course.
The mind tends to cloud human vision. People constantly search in the physical world for something which is actually found in only one ‘direction’. This inward path is a mystical and timeless space. It is a place rediscovered as you go through a process of rising above human-conditioned thought, judgment and perception. This practical shift of Consciousness is beyond definition, expertise and opinions. It defines a place of constant, unconditional love and tranquility. You reach it when nothing disrupts your peace of mind.
Liara Covert’s last blog post..8 Ways to rediscover supernormal perception
Liara, the tricky part for us is to find it when under pressure. I think that is where encouragement through social media like this can be SO helpful. Thanks for your continuing wise guidance.